What about a learning room.

[jim2402]

Hi.

I've noticed alot of new people including myself coming on this site trying to learn and get info from you pro's. Understandably some dont like given away to much knowledge and why should you as you've all worked hard and spent alot of money to get this far.

At the moment I'm trying very hard to get as much info as I can to learn this skill. The problem being there hardly nothing out there to help. I cant afford to do an apprenticeship with anyone as im 29 and have a family which needs £600 aweek to keep afloat.

It's just a suggestion but why not open a learning room for people like me thats keen to learn. You could even make people pay a monthly or yearly subscription to the room. It doesnt have to have everything in. Start us off with the basics to get us started. You could even have a different type of user. So the more you pay the more info is available.

I've been trying now for weeks to get info on how to read maps. NOTHING.

Just a thought.
Thanks
James
jim2402

[admin]

Being forum administrator, it seems a good idea to me. But to do things well I think we must have a user with teaching knowlegde on chiptuning. The price to pay to the membership of that section could be used to pay a teacher. If there are some people interested, I can try to implement that.

[CTW John]

the user would need to invest in software or hardware also for checksumming software also unless we include breaking down checksum's in that as well?.....

[vwmike]

I think this could be a really great idea. You have to stick with this one for a long time before anyone ever gives you any info as people seem to come and go quickly. I couldn't get anything basic answered for quite a long time as anyone that knew wasn't willing to talk. I'm over a hurdle but far from an expert. Still, I get loads of questions and it's a difficult line to walk as others depend on this knowledge not becoming public domain. If you could pay someone to teach it might convince them to do so but I still expect there would be quite a bit of resistance. Perhaps one thing we all should think about is whether or not it could be doing more damage by keeping everyone in the dark. The secrecy breeds overconfident newcomers who are out to ruin ECU's.

[jim2402]

Hi.

I'm glad you all think it's a good idea so far.

I think JOHN DNA is right in that you would need to purchase some hardware and software to get you started. After all you would need to practice what is preached if you are going to learn. Mybe start of with something like a eprom programmer to start with. I think the best thing the room could be good for is to teach people to read and understand the map's, helping them to start tuning there own file. That way alot more people in the forum and not just the beginners would be interested in it.

James

[checksumbitch]

Hi guys

I know how dificult it is to get started. My first experience with chip tuning was 13 years ago. There wasn't many of us out there then. I learned on the the evc dos program written in germam ( pre winols) . It was hard enough to decipher the data let alone have to translate every technical term from german to english. It was impossible to get any help from the handfull of guys who where doing it. It was a teadious task to get started.

The best way to learn the data structures is to start with the older data files, like something from the mid to late 1980s. The files are very simple in contrast to new cras and they will give you good understanding of how the the map data is structured. To start I can post some stock and modfied files from an older model BMW so you can go in with an editor to compare the files. I will list the map name( function) and start and end addresses and give you the X Y values so you can size your maps.

Now, I'm not sure what I need to know about rules and regulations of this forum as don't want to step on any toes. If this is something that interests any the new guys and is ok with the forum owner/ mediator, I will be happy to contribute some info. Also it would help a great deal if I can get a list of questions so I can get a feel for what's needed.

Chip tuning is a black art of sorts. It requires the skill of reverse engineering and the patience of a rock.

[Philip]

Provided you know the tuning changes, why they are made, what they do, next is to learn how to make changes. There are many paterns. Use the Demo of Winols to help you look. you will see maps of different sizes, 6x6 12x12, Many maps will contain information for the 6 or 12 points, and give a reference to what they are. Look for the map references. see which axis changes, which stays (often load vs RPM, but others are there!)
Look at the shapes. Do they increase with Load, rpm? Is it rising to one corner or does it rise and fall. What would rise, and which would rise and fall off.
Look at the contents of the map. Look at the average of the numbers, what they start at, what they rise to. Soon you will be able to find many more maps then automatic systems (especially on older files)
Compare similar files, and look to see what the differences are.

[kisslorand]

There is no such map axis as "Load".

[vwmike]

There is no such map axis as "Load".

You might consider airflow a measure of load.

[Philip]

Sorry, i am mainly interested in NA. I am sure many editors also refer to this as load and show as percentage

[turborabbit]

You might consider airflow a measure of load.
====
Measure of load is defined by each ECU family with it's own way.
All of these ways are similar in their practical result. So for ease of use term "load" is used... either it's ADC result form MAP/MAF, either it's ideal milliseconds of calculated injection, or %% of relative mass flow or %% of calculated ve or whatever...

[jim2402]

Hi.

You could split the room up into more rooms like Beginner, Intermediate and advanced. Restricting people on the rooms depending on the amount they pay for subscription.

Also if all goes well and enough people sign up for it, through out the year you could offer day evens at a tune shop as an advanced course.

Theres lots you could do with it.
James

[jim2402]

I take it people have gone off the idea.
Looks like i'm back to square one.

[norchip.co.uk]

I think it is a good idea

[RKM]

I Think This Is A Great Idea To :d
Comparing Modified And Original Maps And Discussing The Various Changes Would Certainly Give A Better Understanding Of What Is Creating The Extra Power, But I Think It Is Best To Start At The Start And Explain / Discuss The Basic Principals Of What Makes An Engine Run.
This Would Surely Result In Better / Safer Tuners...?

[fastguy76]

I Think This Is A Great Idea To :d
Comparing Modified And Original Maps And Discussing The Various Changes Would Certainly Give A Better Understanding Of What Is Creating The Extra Power, But I Think It Is Best To Start At The Start And Explain / Discuss The Basic Principals Of What Makes An Engine Run.
This Would Surely Result In Better / Safer Tuners...?


Cant students learn a little with demo software ?
after learning basics everyone will be hunger for original software so we will buy after we can use. Or If a class will be opening and there will be a teacher to teach i am ready to buy the software only to learn if demo will not be enough. And also pay the teacher ...

This will be good for really interested people to learn chiptuning

I know the checksums cost a lot but by the time they can be bought.

[CTW John]

I think the fact alot of the major posters don't post in this thread says volumes. Not many people want to teach their next door neighbour their job to take all their work away. Just a feeling...

[fastguy76]

I think the fact alot of the major posters don't post in this thread says volumes. Not many people want to teach their next door neighbour their job to take all their work away. Just a feeling...

Yes thats an another angle.. and right angle :)

[RKM]

I think the fact alot of the major posters don't post in this thread says volumes. Not many people want to teach their next door neighbour their job to take all their work away. Just a feeling...

So true John, it's a tough subject !! :confused:
I can see both / all points of veiw.